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Thread: New Beach House/Electronic Voting

  1. #31
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    Dave, it appears to me that you continue to misunderstand the point that I was trying to make in the Elementary School MCAS scores thread. An anonymous Town Crier poster asserted that MCAS scores had dropped as a result of the elementary school reconfiguration. I showed that the data did not support that assertion. The fact that scores *might* have dropped following or as a result of the reconfiguration is a wholly different point than what I found, which was that I couldn't find any data to support that point.

    Regarding my introduction of the fact that this year's proposed capital debt exclusion is tax neutral, I fail to see how using the word "remember" does anything to inject my opinion. I simply added information. Some might use that information to argue that there's an opportunity to reduce taxes. Others might use that information to be satisfied to know that taxes aren't going up.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dieffenbach View Post
    Dave, it appears to me that you continue to misunderstand the point that I was trying to make in the Elementary School MCAS scores thread. An anonymous Town Crier poster asserted that MCAS scores had dropped as a result of the elementary school reconfiguration. I showed that the data did not support that assertion.
    No, Jeff. You claimed in your opening post that

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dieffenbach View Post
    With respect to the Town Crier poster's allegations that MCAS scores slipped and that the reconfiguration was the cause, the data suggests otherwise.
    As was demonstrated in the thread, the data suggests nothing with respect to the validity or invalidity of the Town Crier poster's allegation; there are far too many uncontrolled variables. Posting a recipe for apple pie or the number of daily calls to Framingham's 911 number during March of 1997 would have been equally ineffective in supporting your claim.

    The thread ended when you agreed that the data you posted does not preclude a drop in MCAS performance due to reconfiguration - thereby acknowledging that your original "the data suggests otherwise" claim was incorrect. I've already cited the relevant posts above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dieffenbach View Post
    Regarding my introduction of the fact that this year's proposed capital debt exclusion is tax neutral, I fail to see how using the word "remember" does anything to inject my opinion. I simply added information. Some might use that information to argue that there's an opportunity to reduce taxes. Others might use that information to be satisfied to know that taxes aren't going up.
    When someone expresses concern and your response begins with remember followed by a fact, there's a strong implication of you're failing to take this fact into account; do so, and your concern will be mitigated. Unless you were employing sarcasm, for which there is no evidence...

  3. #33
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    I guess we'll need to agree to disagree ... or maybe we'll just disagree.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dieffenbach View Post
    I guess we'll need to agree to disagree ... or maybe we'll just disagree.
    Whether you and I agree is irrelevant, Jeff. What matters is the extent to which your character is revealed to readers of this thread.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Bernstein View Post
    Whether you and I agree is irrelevant, Jeff. What matters is the extent to which your character is revealed to readers of this thread.
    Please enlighten me, Dave--in what manner is my character not up to your standard?

    I hope we aren't back on the MCAS data thing. In the event that we are, let me try to summarize differently so as to convey the point that it would appear I haven't been making clearly.

    1. Anonymous person said ES reconfiguration caused MCAS decline
    2. Jeff said that MCAS data doesn't show a decline
    3. Jeff said that MCAS data could be interpreted to suggest an increase
    4. Jeff does not say that MCAS data proves an increase
    5. Jeff agrees that a decline isn't ruled out, just not supported by any data that's been presented
    6. Data shows that lots of time passes
    7. Lots of things are said about beach facilities and menus
    8. Dave says that Jeff has poor character ... but doesn't provide any data

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dieffenbach View Post
    Please enlighten me, Dave--in what manner is my character not up to your standard?
    I did not criticize your character in that post, Jeff, nor will I here. If you wish, I'll deliver that feedback face-to-face.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dieffenbach View Post
    I hope we aren't back on the MCAS data thing. In the event that we are, let me try to summarize differently so as to convey the point that it would appear I haven't been making clearly.

    1. Anonymous person said ES reconfiguration caused MCAS decline
    2. Jeff said that MCAS data doesn't show a decline
    For the third time, your original assertion was

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dieffenbach View Post
    With respect to the Town Crier poster's allegations that MCAS scores slipped and that the reconfiguration was the cause, the data suggests otherwise.
    Your attempt to draw a conclusion about comparative MCAS performance among those student groups with that data was fatally flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dieffenbach View Post
    1. Jeff said that MCAS data could be interpreted to suggest an increase
    Only in the same way that 1+1=1 could be interpreted as true -- specifically, by committing an egregious error in logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dieffenbach View Post
    1. Jeff does not say that MCAS data proves an increase
    2. Jeff agrees that a decline isn't ruled out, just not supported by any data that's been presented
    Given all the uncontrolled variables, the data you presented proves absolutely nothing about the effects of reconfiguration on MCAS performance. Your original assertion that "the data suggests otherwise" was false.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dieffenbach View Post
    1. Data shows that lots of time passes
    2. Lots of things are said about beach facilities and menus
    3. Dave says that Jeff has poor character ... but doesn't provide any data
    What I said was

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Bernstein View Post
    What matters is the extent to which your character is revealed to readers of this thread.
    The choice of the word poor was yours, not mine.

  7. #37
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    Thanks for the clarification, Dave. I am relieved to find my good character intact.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Bernstein View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dieffenbach View Post
    Dave, it appears to me that you continue to misunderstand the point that I was trying to make in the Elementary School MCAS scores thread. An anonymous Town Crier poster asserted that MCAS scores had dropped as a result of the elementary school reconfiguration. I showed that the data did not support that assertion.
    No, Jeff. You claimed in your opening post that

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dieffenbach View Post
    With respect to the Town Crier poster's allegations that MCAS scores slipped and that the reconfiguration was the cause, the data suggests otherwise.
    As was demonstrated in the thread, the data suggests nothing with respect to the validity or invalidity of the Town Crier poster's allegation; there are far too many uncontrolled variables. Posting a recipe for apple pie or the number of daily calls to Framingham's 911 number during March of 1997 would have been equally ineffective in supporting your claim.

    The thread ended when you agreed that the data you posted does not preclude a drop in MCAS performance due to reconfiguration - thereby acknowledging that your original "the data suggests otherwise" claim was incorrect. I've already cited the relevant posts above.
    With all due respect, and at the risk of continuing this altogether off-topic discussion, Jeff posted (slightly more completely than your post above):

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dieffenbach View Post
    With respect to the Town Crier poster's allegations that MCAS scores slipped and that the reconfiguration was the cause, the data suggests otherwise. In 6 of the 8 cases above, the reconfiguration cohorts did better than the non-configuration cohorts.
    As I saw this particular debate, somebody posted something on the Town Crier discussion board that Jeff D found unsubstantiated. To show that it was unsubstantiated, he presented data that suggested the opposite to be true. Didn't prove it, but suggested it. I'm sorry, Dave, but I fail to follow your logic in complaining that his suggestion isn't proven, when all he was trying to do was demonstrate that an earlier comment was unsubstantiated.

    How about the of you just agree that the original comment was not proven (you can both agree on that, can't you?), shake hands (buddies, now?) and move on?

  9. #39
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    By the way, Jeff, note the skillful use of those nested quotes. :-)

  10. #40
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    I bow at the feet of the master.

  11. #41
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    I agree that tax neutrality is a fact but it can be missleading to some people...when it's explained in terms that are easier to understand...like "Honey, our car payments of $500 a month are going to go away this June...now we can spend $500 a month on tanning, and we won't have to get a second or third job to pay for it"...so in terms of this issue...granted The Town's expenses were set to DECLINE by $x$ but with this line item added...we remain neutral...IE: We don't have to generate "revenue" to cover the "new" expense...it's already in the budget...I'd rather see the town try and save some money or use it someplace else...but this Town Beach house will be great...I have no problem paying for something like this...and would actually like to see it expanded even more...When other towns and cities come here to compete with our Wayland crew teams...we should be showing others how great Wayland is...so with a new facility we'll be doing that...I also have two daughters who have done/will do "Beach Buddies" again..and having new bathrooms, maybe a class room type area...is a great idea...instead of questioning this line item...we should be looking at other areas where we can improve...create effeciencies...I'm a certified Black Belt (Six Sigma)...and would love the opportunity to help the town anyway possible...

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by John O'Brien View Post
    but this Town Beach house will be great...I have no problem paying for something like this...and would actually like to see it expanded even more...
    There are people who feel that spending almost $1M on a beach house is a great idea.
    There are people who feel that spending money school technology is a great idea.
    There are people who feel that fixing the public safety building et all.. is a great idea.
    There are people who feel none of the above.

    Problem is, its all together as a YES/NO.
    The only fair way to do it is via a legal mechanism called a MENU.

    And even though this post is on-thread.... there is another thread that talks about this.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by John O'Brien View Post
    .but this Town Beach house will be great...I have no problem paying for something like this...and would actually like to see it expanded even more...When other towns and cities come here to compete with our Wayland crew teams...we should be showing others how great Wayland is...so with a new facility we'll be doing that...I also have two daughters who have done/will do "Beach Buddies" again..and having new bathrooms, maybe a class room type area...is a great idea...
    John, the original plan did include additional facilities (a function room), which has been removed from the current proposal. While the current plan was scaled back, it does allow for future additions. If you want to learn more about the proposal, I added a page of information provided by the Recreation Department here.

  14. #44
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    Dave - as long as we have you on this thread, would you feel comfortable letting us know the reasons that the recently formed Town Meeting Committee that you are on recommended against the electronic voting proposal. I'm specifically not asking you to speak for the committee, as I'm sure that would not be an appropriate thing for you to do. I'm merely asking for your personal opinion as to the committee's reasons. Also, can you tell us the vote of the committee on that Article. Thanks.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawrie Glick View Post
    Dave - as long as we have you on this thread, would you feel comfortable letting us know the reasons that the recently formed Town Meeting Committee that you are on recommended against the electronic voting proposal. I'm specifically not asking you to speak for the committee, as I'm sure that would not be an appropriate thing for you to do. I'm merely asking for your personal opinion as to the committee's reasons. Also, can you tell us the vote of the committee on that Article. Thanks.
    Lawrie, I'd be happy to hear the details from Dave, too. But in the meantime, you can check out the committee's interim report, which is available online here.

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