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Thread: Sos

  1. #16
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    Default Agreeing with Kim -- How Do People Feel About SOS' Transgressions?

    Let's bring this thread back to the original questions posed. I'll re-pose them now:

    My questions are this

    1. How do people feel about having their e-mails sold/given away to organizations in town without their permission?
    2. Why did SOS feel the need to hide behind YES4WHS to advocate for the high school?
    3. What is the future of this group in the eyes of Wayland citizens?

    First off, this has nothing to do with the HS Vote.

    I'll be up front in saying there is no love lost on my part for SOS. Just the pure division their presence has created in town politics has fundamentally changed the Town of Wayland for the worse, in my opinion. This post, though, is for the purpose of hearing all sides of the argument.

    As for my answers:

    1. I would be quite aggravated knowing an organization that expressly states that they "will never share, sell, or rent individual personal information with anyone for their promotional use without your advance permission or unless ordered by a court of law" turns around and does just that. On top of that, to value SOS' e-mail list at $150 is absurd. Anyone who has bought a list of e-mails could attest to that.

    2. I really can't imagine why SOS did not lead the charge here, unless what was written by WVN below rang mostly true.

    3. The future of this group -- I imagine they're here to stay. I don't believe unity in town politics and dissipation of division matters much to these folks. Their marketing presence has the ear of the people currently sitting on the BoS and the SC. Current SC Chair Lou Jurist referred to "the SC's most ardent supporters" -- a euphemisim for this group that has been used before -- only weeks ago when discussing the planned override for 2011. They will only go when those sitting on the committees/boards stop turning to them or when new/unencumbered folks are elected to replace those currently sitting.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Baron View Post
    I would say that WEN does include most stories (and if they leave one out, it does not appear intentional). However, I have noticed that stories criticizing boards like yours, SOS, and other "friends" appear in less prominent places most of the time in the weekly newsletter (several spots down from the top). No way for know if this intentional, but certainly suspicious.
    Jeff, you will find that generally the news items are listed reverse chronologically, as that is the way they appear on the site, and simplest for me when I aggregate things over the weekend before the newsletter goes out. Things will occasionally appear in a slightly different order when I think to move like-articles together, or when I get something last minute, and just shove it into the middle. I will occasionally also move the "human interest" pieces to the end of the news list when I have a little more time to edit. But generally, it's chronological. Sometimes I'm busy (like today, and I'm going to have to sign off for the day after this -- I really need about five extra hours today, and I don't know how to make that happen! ideas welcome! :-) and struggle just to get it done at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Baron View Post
    As for the editorial board, I absolutely agree that it's credibility is questionable. If there is any question about this, see Yes4WHS' site (http://yes4whs.com/WhoWeAre.htm). 1/3 of the editorial board (Hecker) and the moderator of the site (Reichelt) are listed by name as supporters. I'm NOT saying it is wrong to have supported the cause, but if you are going to give the air of credibility surrounding independence, taking a public side in print isn't the way to do it. Suggestion -- eNews should put one of your so-called "contrarians" on this Board. That way we'd know at least one person in the background isn't publicly aligned with SOS.
    Jeff, I headed up one of the high school project campaigns, and have made no efforts to hide this. See for example: http://waylandenews.com/wordpress/about-us/who-we-are/. I do not hang up my right to have opinions because I work on WaylandeNews. WaylandeNews could have, but didn't write an editorial about the high school project, and instead signed up at Yes4WHS. So really, what's your point?

    Jeff B, did you support the high school project?

    As for "contrarians", I'd certainly consider one.

  3. #18
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    Default Some quick thoughts

    I'll take a stab at this, since I'm logged on now, but I don't have time right now to post some more in-depth thoughts I have on the subject.


    1. How do people feel about having their e-mails sold/given away to organizations in town without their permission?
    I think it's a violation of trust.

    2. Why did SOS feel the need to hide behind YES4WHS to advocate for the high school?
    Because they are smart enough to know that their name on the HS could have been the kiss of death for the project.

    3. What is the future of this group in the eyes of Wayland citizens?
    In question.
    I'm not convinced as Jeff Baron suggested, that they are here to stay. As he went on to say, new people on some boards may not be as receptive to their ideas, their motives and the very Selective choices they make about just which Services to Save, vs. which to offer up as sacrificial lambs.

    .
    John Flaherty

    Any views expressed are NOT mine alone.
    Wayland Transparency - Facts Without Spin
    http://www.waylandtransparency.com/

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Baron View Post
    I'm sure the redacted ladies would be thrilled with this turn of events. Take away the only thing people are responding to in this forum and move it somewhere else so nobody would focus on reading the thread's original post about their misdeeds. Let's not further the problem.
    I think you completely missed my point... My suggestion about moving it was so that the two completely separate issues (removal of names and SOS/Yes4WHS emails) could be discussed in a way that was readable and useful. As it is, we have two discussions weaved together. I find it hard to follow, and I don't think separating the two would in anyway take focus away from either - rather, it would enable focus. My two cents. But it's your thread, and I won't do it unless you agree. That's why I suggested it and didn't just do it.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Reichelt View Post
    Jeff, I headed up one of the high school project campaigns, and have made no efforts to hide this. See for example: http://waylandenews.com/wordpress/about-us/who-we-are/. I do not hang up my right to have opinions because I work on WaylandeNews. WaylandeNews could have, but didn't write an editorial about the high school project, and instead signed up at Yes4WHS. So really, what's your point?

    Jeff B, did you support the high school project?

    As for "contrarians", I'd certainly consider one.
    1. I nominate Alan Reiss for your Editorial Board. I'm serious. Put him on there.

    2. Editorial, posting on Yes4WHS -- it's all the same. It's taking a public position which, IMO, impugns the credibility of the Board.

    3. When you're willing to answer my questions about SOS, I'm willing to answer yours about the HS project.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dieffenbach View Post
    Alan, of the "contrarians*", you at least have a habit of basing your posts on reason and evidence. By that measure, your "SOS friendly" remark above certainly disappoints. By what measure is the Discussion Forum "SOS friendly?"
    By the same measure that you would label me as *contrarian*. Being a contrarian is a relative thing however. If I am contrarian to you then you are contrarian to me... so that makes YOU SIR a contrarian. Always be careful with labels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dieffenbach View Post
    Do you mean "SOS friendly" in the sense that the DF is aligned with the SOS mission ("preserve Wayland's services in a fiscally responsible manner")?
    Now thats a can of worms. Fiscally responsible doesn't give a tax rates equal to our zip code... and ya I know the next comeback... its not the tax rate its the total taxes. Well guess what, even if the total taxes are in line that means the average or median assessments are below par and thats a symptom of a sick patient.

    But NO I'm going down this path on this thread. This thread is especially designed for SOS and YES4WHS which, by the way, haven't joined in yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dieffenbach View Post
    Well, that's a mission that I hope none of us oppose. SOS' leadership? They don't as a rule participate. In fact, using the "member search" feature, I could find only a single post (out of a total that numbers in the thousands) by any of the 4 SOS leaders. Perhaps you mean that the comments lean in favor of SOS? Well, I don't really have a way to tally that, but there's certainly no shortage of anti-SOS posts. If you disagree, please back up your accusation with some data.
    What the HELL does that prove? Thats called stealth mode.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dieffenbach View Post
    Perhaps you mean "SOS friendly" in a broader way--a majority of DF participants being "aligned" (by some unspecified definition) with SOS. That accusation has been made before--my response at the time, which I wasn't able to track down, looked at who the frequent thread starters and posters are. It's easy enough to recreate that analysis, however, so here it is. Of the top ten most recent threads, a majority were started by people I wouldn't describe as being SOS-aligned. That's even more true if you filter out the "neutral" threads on topics such as "Beyond Beans" and "Avatar." If you look at the most recent post on each of these threads, you see the same profile--hardly the SOS cheerleading squad.
    Avatar? .... What?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dieffenbach View Post
    That leaves me with concluding that you are suggesting that the DF's leadership is "SOS friendly." Well, that may be--I haven't asked the moderator or the editorial board for their opinion on SOS. But what I don't see, as Kim elaborated on so articulately in her recent post, is any evidence that the DF leadership has used it's position to skew the discussion one way or the other. Now, it may be that I simply am not thinking deeply enough about what "SOS friendly" means, so if I've missed an angle, Alan, please enlighten me.
    Now WayeNews is entitled to endorse any candidates they want. So let me try to explain by example.
    In the last BoS election WayeNews endorsed me 3rd out of three. [Glad I made it into the top 3 however] On that same week the town Crier endorsed me 1st out of three... I even put that 1st on my campaign signs.

    Next, when you look at the people who sign for who they endorse on WayeNews you get a list as long a the victims of the Titanic for anybody else running against a non SOS candidate - ie me.

    When you look at my list you see Richard Turner (and no .. don't redact Richard.. I'm sure he's ok with this).

    If, in fact, this sampling of opinion on WayeNews actually represented opinion in Wayland then I would not have lost the election by a few hundred votes, it would have been the entire town for the SOS candidate and my family and Richard Turner for me.

    So I have to conclude (yes Jeff from actual data taken off opinion lists from this site that...) this site is SOS friendly.

    But remember, I'm still here and I'm not SOS friendly and other are here that are not too. That doesn't mean that this DF is not a good DF or that Kim doesn't do a good job. Its just a matter of apparent data.

    Consider yourself enlightened.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dieffenbach View Post
    "Contrarian" is of course a crude simplification--for that, I apologize, but labeling one group or another isn't the point of this post, and I'd rather not spend the time to come up with a more precise or representative word or phrase.[/I]
    Since *Contrarian* is a boolean term which can boomerang right back to the person calling the other person a *Contrarian* then I would prefer to leave that term alone... just like *naysayer*... Am I a naysayer or are you a naysayer? You say nay to no overrides, I say nay to overrides.

    So your looking for the term or word? So am I... but I prefer V8 over Kool Aid

    Where the hell is SOS?

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Reichelt View Post
    Alan, I thought there was some place that I wrote some specific language for our privacy policy in my Constant Contact account, but I could not find one. It seems on our newsletters, the Privacy Policy you see is standard for Constant Contact accounts, the email manager that both WaylandeNews and SOS use. That policy is available here. The relevant portions state:

    Why did you receive a mailing from us?

    Our email marketing is permission based. If you received a mailing from us, our records indicate that (a) you have expressly shared this address for the purpose of receiving information in the future ("opt-in"), or (b) you have registered or purchased or otherwise have an existing relationship with us. We respect your time and attention by controlling the frequency of our mailings.

    Sharing and Usage

    We will never share, sell, or rent individual personal information with anyone for their promotional use without your advance permission or unless ordered by a court of law. Information submitted to us is only available to employees managing this information for purposes of contacting you or sending you emails based on your request for information, and to contracted service providers for purposes of providing services relating to our communications with you.
    Thank you Kim... yes this is the same policy that SOS uses.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Baron View Post
    As for the editorial board, I absolutely agree that it's credibility is questionable. If there is any question about this, see Yes4WHS' site (http://yes4whs.com/WhoWeAre.htm). 1/3 of the editorial board (Hecker) and the moderator of the site (Reichelt) are listed by name as supporters. I'm NOT saying it is wrong to have supported the cause, but if you are going to give the air of credibility surrounding independence, taking a public side in print isn't the way to do it.
    Jeff, are you saying that all editorial boards (New York Times, Wall Street Journal, etc.) surrender credibility when they weigh in with an opinion, or just some editorial boards?

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlanJReiss View Post
    By the same measure that you would label me as *contrarian*. Being a contrarian is a relative thing however. If I am contrarian to you then you are contrarian to me... so that makes YOU SIR a contrarian. Always be careful with labels.
    I think that I made it quite clear in my post that I understand the imprecision of labels. Of course, you started this particular "label war" with your "SOS friendly" remark ...

    As for my use of contrarian, let me elaborate. There's an expressed majority opinion in town as represented by the election of officials and the passage (or defeat) of various measures. Call that the "establishment," perhaps. Opinions that run counter to the expressed majority are contrarian by definition. The stances that you and others have taken on the DF and elsewhere tend to be (but are not always) contrarian in that sense. I'm happy with a replacement term: "anti-establisment?" "minority?" "constructive critic?" Something else? Doesn't matter to me, but it's certainly convenient to use labels, since without them we'd have to use ten (a hundred?) times as many words.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanJReiss View Post
    Now WayeNews is entitled to endorse any candidates they want. So let me try to explain by example.
    In the last BoS election WayeNews endorsed me 3rd out of three. [Glad I made it into the top 3 however] On that same week the town Crier endorsed me 1st out of three... I even put that 1st on my campaign signs.
    What do WEN candidate endorsements have to do with the Discussion Forum (which you originally labeled as "SOS friendly")?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanJReiss View Post
    Next, when you look at the people who sign for who they endorse on WayeNews you get a list as long a the victims of the Titanic for anybody else running against a non SOS candidate - ie me. ... When you look at my list you see Richard Turner (and no .. don't redact Richard.. I'm sure he's ok with this). ... If, in fact, this sampling of opinion on WayeNews actually represented opinion in Wayland then I would not have lost the election by a few hundred votes, it would have been the entire town for the SOS candidate and my family and Richard Turner for me. ... So I have to conclude (yes Jeff from actual data taken off opinion lists from this site that...) this site is SOS friendly.
    Again, this really doesn't have anything to do with the Discussion Forum. Rather, you are saying (I think--correct me if I'm mistaken) that the readership of WaylandeNews is SOS friendly. You can't really even say that with any certainty, since endorsements posted by readers on WEN may not represent the readership overall. And, "SOS friendly" is a fairly inexact description of "people not endorsing Alan Reiss."

  10. #25
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    Jeff, I stand by my statement.
    WEN is SOS friendly. It has been proven by endorsement by the editorial staff and it is proven by the list of supporters and how they support with respect to the general population. The statistics between the two don't line up.

    As you know, we have disagreed in the past and we will disagree in the future and thats OK.

    Now, you have entered this thread to focus on my characterization of this being an SOS friendly site.

    Take the time now to address the core purpose of this thread.
    The questions that Jeff Baron have initially proposed. That would be a good way to continue this thread.
    I would love to hear your thoughts on the main issue here.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlanJReiss View Post
    Jeff, I stand by my statement.
    WEN is SOS friendly. It has been proven by endorsement by the editorial staff and it is proven by the list of supporters and how they support with respect to the general population. The statistics between the two don't line up.
    Your statement was that the Discussion Board was SOS friendly. I don't see *any* support for that. If you are changing your statement to say something like, "The WEN editorial staff is 'SOS friendly' in their personal opinions but doesn't allow those personal opinions to affect either WaylendeNews or the Discussion Forum," then we're in agreement.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlanJReiss View Post
    Take the time now to address the core purpose of this thread.
    The questions that Jeff Baron have initially proposed. That would be a good way to continue this thread.
    I would love to hear your thoughts on the main issue here.
    As the old saying goes, Alan, don't hold your breath less you desire a blue face. Jeff is not going to answer the questions about SOS. It is yet to be determined if anyone else will either.

    Since they keep getting lost behind these other posts, I'll re-pose again them now:

    My questions are this

    1. How do people feel about having their e-mails sold/given away to organizations in town without their permission?
    2. Why did SOS feel the need to hide behind YES4WHS to advocate for the high school?
    3. What is the future of this group in the eyes of Wayland citizens?

    First off, this has nothing to do with the HS Vote.

    I'll be up front in saying there is no love lost on my part for SOS. Just the pure division their presence has created in town politics has fundamentally changed the Town of Wayland for the worse, in my opinion. This post, though, is for the purpose of hearing all sides of the argument.

    As for my answers:

    1. I would be quite aggravated knowing an organization that expressly states that they "will never share, sell, or rent individual personal information with anyone for their promotional use without your advance permission or unless ordered by a court of law" turns around and does just that. On top of that, to value SOS' e-mail list at $150 is absurd. Anyone who has bought a list of e-mails could attest to that.

    2. I really can't imagine why SOS did not lead the charge here, unless what was written by WVN below rang mostly true.

    3. The future of this group -- I imagine they're here to stay. I don't believe unity in town politics and dissipation of division matters much to these folks. Their marketing presence has the ear of the people currently sitting on the BoS and the SC. Current SC Chair Lou Jurist referred to "the SC's most ardent supporters" -- a euphemisim for this group that has been used before -- only weeks ago when discussing the planned override for 2011. They will only go when those sitting on the committees/boards stop turning to them or when new/unencumbered folks are elected to replace those currently sitting.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Dieffenbach View Post
    Your statement was that the Discussion Board was SOS friendly. I don't see *any* support for that. If you are changing your statement to say something like, "The WEN editorial staff is 'SOS friendly' in their personal opinions but doesn't allow those personal opinions to affect either WaylendeNews or the Discussion Forum," then we're in agreement.
    OK, your right, the current active posting readership of this DF is going for SOS' jugular vein right now. So I guess if I were landing on Earth from another planet right now I would have to say that this DF is anti-SOS and some might even say anti-Dieffenbach. However, if the aliens were to have landed one year ago they would have said that WEN is anti-Reiss. But I understand that when a particle of anti-Reiss comes in contact with a particle of anti-Dieffenbach then the two annihilate so Jeff, lets not shake hands anytime soon.

    Now do me the favor and reply with your incredible intellect (and I do mean that) on what Jeff Baron originally posted.

    Enquire-ing minds want to know.

  14. #29
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    Default Why is there so much I don’t understand.

    Why doesn’t SOS/Yes4WHS show up here and participate? Are we not neighbors and friends having a gay old time this Sunday? Must we be adversaries that don’t deserve an answer? (I wish they would answer here, just like I wish Gretchen Schuler would show up and say why the traffic lights are such a problem.)

    It seems obvious that if an organization has a policy of not sharing e-mail addresses, and then shares them, what’s not to understand? Either the two organizations are in fact the same, so nothing was actually shared. (Isn’t that the reality?) Or they shared the addresses without permission, which would have been wrong. They could say it was for a good thing, the new school, which wasn’t really in doubt anyway. They could apologize and promise not to do it again. To be more open and forthright.

    We could all be friends (a few contrarian friends, a few establishment friends) and we could head off to the promised land of figuring out how we’re all going to pay for everything.

    I don’t understand why SOS couldn’t be themselves. I would have assumed they were for the new high school. As I’d assume the school committee was, the selectmen too. Why would that have been a “kiss of death”?

    Also don’t understand why Jeff D. won’t give his opinion about the actual issue. Perhaps he is “SOS friendly.” Jeff, you do have a tendency to just not answer questions when the answer is not what is desired. No matter how obvious. Maybe it’s just that politicians often can’t speak the truth, it would alienate people whose support is needed, or are worked with.

    It’s sad that SOS won’t come here. (As it is that committees and/or our leadership won’t show up here to discuss things.) For this is a good discussion forum. Filled with friends, neighbors and plenty of good intentions.

    On a related issue, how do we create a “contrarian” e-mail list of 3,000 addresses? Perhaps SOS might share?

    donBustin@verizon.net

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by don Bustin View Post
    On a related issue, how do we create a “contrarian” e-mail list of 3,000 addresses? Perhaps SOS might share?
    I think you'd have to work pretty hard to create a list of 3,000 "establishment" *or* "contrarian" addresses. For instance, I bet that WVN's list has a fair mix of both. Ditto for the School Committee's list. Culling it out to make it "pure" would be time-consuming and likely error-prone. In fact, you'd probably need to slice the list by issue--there might well be people who are pro new HS but anti-override. Or pro-override by anti-Town Center.

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