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Thread: Sos

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Baron View Post

    1. How do people feel about having their e-mails sold/given away to organizations in town without their permission?
    2. Why did SOS feel the need to hide behind YES4WHS to advocate for the high school?
    3. What is the future of this group in the eyes of Wayland citizens?
    The concept that this is an SOS friendly board is laughable at this point in time. Anyone who seems to post anything remotely supportive of SOS is immediately bashed by the most vocal on this board. Yet I am willing to risk answering the questions in the hopes Jeff B will return to the board he suggested be created and answer the question that is pending his response....

    1) I can not speak for people but I can and am sometimes allowed to speak for me. I am fine with organizations in town having my email address, a whole bunch of Nigerian bankers do as do the purveyors of all sorts of things that seem to be desired by someone with an email address like bent down. So why not my neighbors?
    2) I do not know the answer to this one but I thought it had to do with the whole ballot question vs other voting rule stuff. It was clearly the same group of folks.
    3) I think SOS has mobilized a large portion of the voting population that is normally too apathetic to care about specific issues. People who have a problem with the encouragement to vote have a problem with democracy. The argument that SOS has become too powerful should lead someone to mobilize a counter balancing portion of the population. If it is not possible to mobilize additional voters than it is a case of the majority vote winning. Isn't that democracy? I hope they continue and I hope they fire enough people up that we do get more people to care about issues and show up to vote.

    Fire away : )
    Last edited by BTDowns; 02-02-2010 at 05:01 PM. Reason: correct typo's

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Reichelt View Post
    My answers are:

    (1) I think it was a mistake. I think Yes4WHS should not have used the email list of SOS. I do think it is reasonable to assume that most people who would choose to be on SOS' list would have been interested in Yes4WHS' emails. I am on their list, and I was happy to get their emails. I suspect the vast majority of recipients were not bothered by it. Some may well have been bothered (though I do wonder if those people perhaps don't really want to be on SOS' list either - their complaints, I think, would tend to be either disingenuous, or focused on what seems to me to be a minor point). I can hear the gasp: "A minor point, she says?!" Well, yes -- think about it, you are arguing out of one side of your mouth that the organizations are really the same, and out of the other that they are different. But, whether a technicality or not, it was a separate organization, and they should not have used the emails.

    In summary: I think it was a mistake, Yes4WHS should not have used SOS' email addresses.
    After a few days reflection, and some sorting through some old emails, I'd like to amend my response:

    SOS sent out an email on September 24 with the following bold-faced text near the top of the email: "SOS is excited to support a Ballot Question Committee, Yes4WHS, which is forming to advocate for passing the High School project. You will receive an email from Yes4WHS shortly with information about the advocacy effort and the project." There was no public outcry then - back when comments would have been constructive. The argument that they had no "advance permission" is definitely weakened when they did, in fact, provide advance notice. When you couple of the advance notice with an opt-out link on every email and a clearly related cause, I think the argument that they betrayed any trust gets pretty weak.

    I have certainly received emails from individuals who had no business emailing me. I have found myself on local lists supporting causes or candidates in which I had not expressed any previous interest. Is this any different?


    So, I pose this question to those of you who are upset about SOS' mailing:

    How do you feel about emails you get which are the result of your email address being culled from other unrelated emails? (For example, what if you get an email from a member of your church on a non-church related issue, and the mailer had no personal experience with you? what if you get an email from a political candidate who got your email address from a mailing you were both on, say a curling club mailing, or a mailing you both got because your kids were in the same class at school?)

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Reichelt View Post
    When you couple of the advance notice with an opt-out link on every email and a clearly related cause, I think the argument that they betrayed any trust gets pretty weak.
    Kim,
    I wasn't as upset about this as some people, and am already involved in enough other issues that I don't want to jump into this one.

    However, if one wants to be precise, the point needs to be made that in fact, they did betray trust by going against their online stated Privacy Policy. Neither of the things you mention negate that. That is where there was a breach of trust.


    .
    John Flaherty

    Any views expressed are NOT mine alone.
    Wayland Transparency - Facts Without Spin
    http://www.waylandtransparency.com/

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Flaherty View Post
    Kim,
    However, if one wants to be precise, the point needs to be made that in fact, they did betray trust by going against their online stated Privacy Policy. Neither of the things you mention negate that. That is where there was a breach of trust.
    Thanks, John. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I mean, we don't entirely disagree - I just worry a lot more about real ethical breaches than technicalities. I think this really falls into the latter case. Certainly a case can be made that they shouldn't have done it, as you and others have put forth, but we can argue 'til the cows come home about the degree of infraction. So let's not.

    Anyway, you really didn't answer my question, which I'll put to Jeff B, Alan and John (as the ones who were unhappy with Yes4WHS' email - but of course, everyone else feel free to chime in as well) which gets at "what is spam"? (And I don't mean legally, I mean morally) I would argue that even if a technical violation, the Yes4WHS emails were primarily wanted by people with a demonstrated related interest. So contrast that with my example and question below:

    How do you feel about emails you get which are the result of your email address being culled from other unrelated emails? (For example, what if you get an email from a member of your church on a non-church related issue, and the mailer had no personal experience with you? what if you get an email from a political candidate who got your email address from a mailing you were both on, say a curling club mailing, or a mailing you both got because your kids were in the same class at school?) Is such mailing OK?
    Last edited by Kim Reichelt; 02-03-2010 at 02:10 PM. Reason: to extend invitation to post to everyone! :-)

  5. #50
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    Default Perahps I need a bigger radar

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Reichelt View Post
    - I just worry a lot more about real ethical breaches than technicalities.
    Me, too, which is why I don't have much of an answer for you.
    This wasn't even on my radar.

    While the number of people who might complain about it will be far less than if it was a totally unrelated subject, since many SOS supporters were also HS supporters, , that doesn't change the fact that it was a violation of their own Privacy Policy to do that. So, even though you might be OK with it, from a purely objective look at it, what they did was wrong. And while in your opinion it's not a serous one, it WAS a breach of ethics and not merely a technicality.

    But, I've already spent more time on this than I intended.
    I am much more interested in:
    • how the SC can justifty spending thousands of dollars to keep documents from us.
    • the implications and the significance of the Juris email
    • the scathing reveiw that Heather wrote of Burton in 2004 and the fact that she quietly took her seat at the table after that and went on in the coming years to write rave reviews and award him with big raises at a time when millions of people were losing their jobs
    • the true number of secretaries working out of the shcools' Central Office and who each one of them works for
    • How the SC can justify only cutting $22,000 from admin, while cutting teachers, aides and more in dollar amounts that were closer to a million.
    • Why many poeple won't answer "The SOS Questions".

    .... to name a few. I will take these subjects up in more appropriate threads as time permits. No need to go off on a tangent here.

    The fact that this isn't on my radar doens't mean it's not a worthy topic and I hope you hear from others who have more of an opinion on it. My radar screen is only so big.

    .
    John Flaherty

    Any views expressed are NOT mine alone.
    Wayland Transparency - Facts Without Spin
    http://www.waylandtransparency.com/

  6. #51
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    Default Value of a mailing list

    This discussion seems to have lost some steam and since I emerged relatively unscathed from my last post I thought I would add another thought.

    Earlier in this thread of messages Alan suggested that the $150 value assigned to the SOS email list was inadequate. I believe Alan has assigned a value to the email list that is based on values that do not exist. If you were trying to make money from the list and everyone on the list was a qualified lead for a high ticket item than maybe it is worth more than $150.

    A better comparable is the list of registered voters in Wayland which can be purchased from the town clerk for $15. If you wanted something a little more selective how about registered Republicans between the age of 20 and 73, that list would cost you $15. How about the list of everyone who took a ballot in the election for the High School debt exclusion - $15. Information on how many ballots that were turned in by district unmarked - free. Very interesting information based on another discussion. The mailing address, the alternative mailing address, the profession, the race, the political party, etc is all available for $15. I think the SOS list because it is all email addresses is probably worth more but not 10 times as much.

  7. #52
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    Default But.....

    The value of an email list is in the cost of using it.
    The cost of sending a letter to 12,000 people is $5,280.
    The cost of sending 12,000 emails is zero.
    Therefore the value of the list is considerably more.

    Plus, targeted email addresses are not readily available from the Town Clerks's office, thereby increasing their value even more.


    .
    John Flaherty

    Any views expressed are NOT mine alone.
    Wayland Transparency - Facts Without Spin
    http://www.waylandtransparency.com/

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTDowns View Post
    This discussion seems to have lost some steam and since I emerged relatively unscathed from my last post I thought I would add another thought.

    Earlier in this thread of messages Alan suggested that the $150 value assigned to the SOS email list was inadequate. I believe Alan has assigned a value to the email list that is based on values that do not exist. If you were trying to make money from the list and everyone on the list was a qualified lead for a high ticket item than maybe it is worth more than $150.
    The mailing list you get from the town clerk is 'snail mail' addresses. These cost paper, printing, postage and labor to mail. Something like $1 per piece but you would have to mail it yourself and spend the money. So the town clerk list is, in fact, worth $15.

    The mailing list that was contributed to YES4WHS was an email list which can be electronically mailed multiple times and with no actual cost out of pocket other than some monthly charge for server bandwidth which is minimal. Each email avoids the $1 / unit cost. Emails are not available from the clerk so this is not a proper comparison at all.

    The list was approximately 3,000 (my assumption) and it was mailed 6 times or 18,000 pieces thereby saving $18,000 in pen/paper/postage charges.

    I've recently checked with the OCPF on this and they agree they would assign a value of pen/paper/postage to an email... but in this instance it was done via a BQC which has an unlimited contribution allowed by law so they have no legal obligation to contest the $150 figure. If it were a PAC then a $500 limit would apply and then the 'teeth' of the actual value would have been investigated further.

    Comparing the town clerk's physical address's to what YES4WHS received and was allowed to use is simply not an accurate comparison.

  9. #54
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    But But...

    One could easily collect email addresses from all of the town oriented emails and then just use their address book and that would cost them nothing, not even $15.

    By the way there have been a number of studies that have shown spam email is significantly less likely to be reviewed than junk mail. Additionally with all of the spam filters out there today it is a lot less likely to get to your addressee, making it worth considerable less.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTDowns View Post
    But But...

    One could easily collect email addresses from all of the town oriented emails and then just use their address book and that would cost them nothing, not even $15.

    By the way there have been a number of studies that have shown spam email is significantly less likely to be reviewed than junk mail. Additionally with all of the spam filters out there today it is a lot less likely to get to your addressee, making it worth considerable less.
    Town oriented emails? What is that? .... that is not the powerhouse 3,000 SOS followers that have been tightly honed and prepped..... if what you are saying is true then anybody could have a list as focused and large as SOS... ???

    Certainly, the target and focused list of loyal followers or interested parties who live in Wayland as supplied by SOS would not be regarded as junk mail.
    Not even close.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlanJReiss View Post
    Town oriented emails? What is that? .... that is not the powerhouse 3,000 SOS followers that have been tightly honed and prepped..... if what you are saying is true then anybody could have a list as focused and large as SOS... ???

    Certainly, the target and focused list of loyal followers or interested parties who live in Wayland as supplied by SOS would not be regarded as junk mail.
    Not even close.
    Alan,

    Have you even looked at what it costs to buy an email list? 100,000 addresses for $137 is the going rate. Google it. Sorry you have such an axe to grind with SOS but it does not make right to use hyperbole.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTDowns View Post
    Alan,

    Have you even looked at what it costs to buy an email list? 100,000 addresses for $137 is the going rate. Google it. Sorry you have such an axe to grind with SOS but it does not make right to use hyperbole.
    Sorry you don't understand that this is a specialty targeted list which is not available on the open market.
    The value of this list doesn't fit your generic model.

    You should try to leave your prejudices out of this discussion and not make things personal.

  13. #58
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    Alan,

    Sorry that you do not understand how easy it is to generate a specially targeted list of email addresses. They are readily available on the open market. Your prejudices are very obvious to even the casual reader you should consider checking them at the door if you want to encourage a discussion but I doubt that is what you want to encourage.

  14. #59
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    Ben,
    I'm glad you believe you know how to generate specialty lists of private emails that are not in the public domain.
    And as for me... yes I'm sure you feel that way.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlanJReiss View Post

    You should try to leave your prejudices out of this discussion and not make things personal.
    emphasis added

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